Iran-Contra Hearings - Testimony of Colonel Oliver North.
Iran-Contra Hearings - Testimony of Colonel Oliver North.
Iran-Contra Hearings - Testimony of Colonel Oliver North. Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine) questions North. He mentions the Fall Guy scheme concerning Colonel North.
Iran-Contra Hearings - Testimony of Colonel Oliver North.
Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). I d like to turn now to another area of your testimony. And that s the plan you described for you to take the blame for this matter. You said Mr. Casey called it the Fall Guy Plan. Over what period of time did your discussions with Mr. Casey occur about this plan? That is - as best you can recall - when did it first come up and when did you last discuss it with him? Colonel Oliver North. My sense of the discussions with the director on that aspect of it would probably have began in early spring of 1984. It was a time in which the money for the resistance was running out. As members of the Intelligence committees know, appeals have been made to the Intelligence committees for release of certain monies that can be applied to the program. It was seen that that was not to be forthcoming. And at that point when alternatives were discussed and we eventually decided to pursue availing ourselves of offers from foreign governments, it was seen that it would need to be someone, who as I put it so bluntly, could take the fall. My sense is that that occurred off and on periodically as we discussed various initiatives over the course of time between early 84 to the end of my tenure right up to the last days before I departed the NSC in November 1986. Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). Now you testified that the purpose of the plan was to limit the political embarrassment that might result. I m sorry you re shaking your head no. Colonel Oliver North. No. It was not only to limit the political embarrassment. Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). That was in part. Colonel Oliver North. In part Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). It was a purpose. Alright. From disclosure of these events, my question is you said that, did you mean either the sale of arms to Iran or the use of proceeds from the sale for the Contras or the Contra resupply effort or all of them? Colonel Oliver North. All of them Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). All of them. Colonel Oliver North. In fact one must recall it goes back to the spring of 1984 before there was any Iran initiative. And the decision was you needed to have the plausible deniability which ought to be a part of any covert operation.
Iran-Contra Hearings - Testimony of Colonel Oliver North.
Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). Now did you ever discuss this subject with anyone else either in or out of Mr. Casey s presence? Colonel Oliver North. Well I discussed it with Admiral Poindexter and Mr. McFarlane. And I don t recall whether Mr. Casey was there for any of those discussions necessarily. But I certainly did talk to them about it. Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). Do you know to your knowledge whether Mr. Casey discussed it with anyone other than Mr. McFarlane or Mr. Poindexter? Colonel Oliver North. I don t know. Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). Right. So to your knowledge at least, the only four people who were aware of the plan and participated in discussions about it are you, Mr. Casey, Mr. Poindexter and Mr. McFarlane. Is that correct? Colonel Oliver North. Well I have also been asked questions about did I say it to such and so? Or another witness of whatever and I suppose that I did. Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). Something like that? Colonel Oliver North. Yes. Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). Yeah I was going to ask you about that later but I ll ask you about that now. In a recent magazine article you were quoted as telling friends beginning in 1984 that the day will come when I have to resign in disgrace from the administration and take the heat for the President. Did you ever say that or something like that to anyone? Colonel Oliver North. First of all, I would like to make sure that you understand Senator; I haven t read a magazine article or anything else about myself in some time except as other people bring it to my attention. And second of all, I ve seen my words mischaracterized, misquoted and described to other people for so long that I wouldn t want to indicate that I did actually agreed with anything. But I m sure that I would have said something like that, at various points in time. I certainly said it in the committee.
Iran-Contra Hearings - Testimony of Colonel Oliver North.
Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). Now did the suggestion that you would be the fall guy originate with you or Mr. Casey? Colonel Oliver North. My guess is it was probably Director Casey. I mean, I ve tried to describe the relationship I ve had with the Director and at some points it was that of a teacher. Or a philosophical mentor? And in some cases it was that of an experienced hand in intelligence matters or in some cases just getting the job done. And I would guess that Director Casey was the one who pointed out that there would come a time when there would need to be if these activities were exposed, somebody to stand up and take the heat for it. In those kinds of words. Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). So your recollection is that it was Mr. Casey who? Colonel Oliver North. I m not sure that Director Casey who ever said it It s got to be you Ollie. It was probably Ollie saying When that happens, it will be me. Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). And you also said though at one point that Mr. Casey said that you might be to junior a person to be the fall guy. There wouldn t be plausible deniability then? Colonel Oliver North. Well I think. Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). Excuse me let me finish the question. And he suggested that Admiral Poindexter might have to be a fall guy. Do you recall that testimony? Colonel Oliver North. I m not sure. I d recall that kind of thing happening right toward the end. I mean that wasn t at some point toward the earlier phases of that activity. I think it was after the revelations in the McFarlane trip and the press queries about it here in this country. And at some point probably after the first week of November talking with Director Casey or in that time frame, Director Casey indicating that you re not big enough buddy. It s probably going to go higher.
Iran-Contra Hearings - Testimony of Colonel Oliver North.
Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). My question is did you or anyone else ever tell Admiral Poindexter that he was under consideration as the Fall Guy? Colonel Oliver North. I don t recall a specific conversation Senator that I said Boss it s now you not me. I do recall again right toward the end discussing with Admiral Poindexter the fact it was more likely that both of us would leave. Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). So did anything ever become of that suggestion or was that? Colonel Oliver North. We both left Sir. Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). You both left. So. It may turn out that Mr. Casey was more correct than he realized at the time. Colonel Oliver North. He was right about a lot of things Senator.
Iran-Contra Hearings - Testimony of Colonel Oliver North.
Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). During your discussions with Mr. Casey, Mr. McFarlane and Mr. Poindexter about the plan, did a question ever arise among you as to whether what was being proposed was legal? Colonel Oliver North. In which case? Across the board on all activities? Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). On the plan - the Fall Guy Plan. I am limiting to that now. Colonel Oliver North. Oh no. I don t think it was - first of all we operated from the premise that everything we did do was legal. And therefore the fact that there would be somebody to take the blame as it were, was not inconsistent, I don t think, with any of the rest of what we did. Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). So your answer is no there was no discussion? Colonel Oliver North. I do not recall any discussion about the legality of some guy standing up and saying I did it all and I m gone. I don t recall any discussion. Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). Did the question ever arise that what was being proposed was appropriate since it necessary involved false statements by high public officials? Colonel Oliver North. No, in fact I m not sure that they are false. I think you have in front of you the culprit who did all these things and has come here and testify to that. Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). Well of course, you didn t intend there to be such an investigation and such testimony. Colonel Oliver North. I had surely hoped that there wouldn t be Senator.
Iran-Contra Hearings - Testimony of Colonel Oliver North.
Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). In fact you had said that you and anyone else never anticipated the possibility of a criminal investigation, and but for the criminal investigation you were prepared to go through the plan, resign in disgrace and take the heat for the president. Colonel Oliver North. That is correct. Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). But you said that because the criminal investigation, you changed your mind and decided to protect yourself. Colonel Oliver North. Exactly. Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). After you changed your mind did you tell Mr. Casey that you had done so? Colonel Oliver North. I had no discussions with Director Casey on the day that my mind changed. And that was the 25th of November. And never talked to him again unfortunately. Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). And after you changed your mind did you tell Admiral Poindexter or Mr. McFarlane that you changed your mind? And because of this pending criminal aspect you no longer intended to be the fall guy in the Fall Guy plan? Colonel Oliver North. They probably learned it when I appeared here Sir. Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). Probably not a happy day for Admiral Poindexter listening to your testimony last week. Colonel Oliver North. I don t want to characterize how the Admiral feels. I have not talked to the Admiral in months. Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). That really may have answered my questions, and it was as I understand your earlier testimony that there simply wasn t any discussion about whether it was legal or appropriate. You assumed the legality of your actions. Colonel Oliver North. Again I want to emphasize the fact that it wasn t so much for any political motive on the part of any of the participants so much as it was an effort to protect the detailed knowledge of what had transpired and protect the covert operations themselves. And again none of us to my recollection ever discussed a legal propriety aspect to the whole thing. Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). By then however, Congress had resumed aide to the Contras and the covert action was no longer necessary was it? Indeed it had been terminated. What would be the need to protect that action by making up a false story about it? Colonel Oliver North. I am not sure what the false story aspect really pertains Senator to have this guy stand up and say I did it and have the finger pointed at him and let him go protects the people with whom I worked with in Central America and elsewhere, protects the lives and safety of people inside Nicaragua, protects the people in Europe you worked with us on these activities. Protects the lives of people who worked in Lebanon with us. The lives of people inside Iran who worked with us. The lives of the American hostages, if one could prevent those things from coming out ultimately we d be well served. Senator George Mitchell (D - Maine). My question was limited to the Contra resupply effort. Which of course was only indirectly related to the hostage situation.