Testimony of Gerald Alch - Watergate Hearings: Senate Select Committee Hearings on Presidential Campaign Activities, May 24, 1973
Testimony of Gerald Alch - Watergate Hearings: Senate Select Committee Hearings on Presidential Campaign Activities, May 24, 1973
Watergate Hearings: Senate Select Committee Hearings on Presidential Campaign Activities, May 24, 1973 - Testimony of Gerald Alch United States Senate Caucus Room, Washington DC
Testimony of Gerald Alch - Watergate Hearings: Senate Select Committee Hearings on Presidential Campaign Activities, May 24, 1973
Senator BAKER. Now, in the time I have before me, still remaining to me, Mr. Alch, I want to suggest two or three things that appear to be in conflict, and I want you to suggest to us how we might go about reconciling those apparent discrepancies or how we might go about shedding additional light on the subject matter. Begin with the allegation as I understand it of Mr. McCord as stated on page 2 of his testimony as follows: "There followed a suggestion from Mr. Alch that I use as my defense during the trial the story that the Watergate operation was a CIA operation." This is Mr. McCord speaking. Mr. ALCH. Yes, sir. Senator BAKER. "I heard him out on the suggestion, which included questions as to whether I could ostensibly have been recalled from retirement from the CIA to participate in the operation. He said that if so, my personnel records at CIA could be doctored to reflect such a recall. I stated that Schlesinger, the new Director of CIA, whose appointment had just been announced, could be subpoenaed and would go along with it." Mr. ALCH. Yes, sir. Senator BAKER. You previously testified that you did not say that to Mr. McCord. Is that correct? Mr. ALCH. That is correct. Senator BAKER. Did anyone say that to Mr. McCord in your presence? Mr. ALCH. No, sir. Senator BAKER. Do you have any knowledge of anybody saying that to Mr. McCord? Mr. ALCA. No, sir. Senator BAKER. Then there is a conflict between your testimony and that of Mr. McCord. Do you have any suggestions as to how this committee can reconcile that apparently irreconcilable difference in proof and give us some indication of where the truth lies? Mr. ALCH. Two. Senator BAKER. Tell us. Mr. ALCH. One, speak to the third party who was there. Senator BAKER. Who was there? Mr. ALCH. Mr. Bernard Shankman. Senator BAKER. Is he under subpoena, Mr. Counsel? Mr. DASH. We have been interviewing Mr. Shankman. Senator BAKER. Would you make a notation that I would like to speak to Mr. Shankman. Would you go ahead, sir? Mr. ALCH. If that should prove inconclusive with regard to this discrepancy and with regard to the discrepancy that Mr. Fensterwald denies that he told me that he was not going after the President. Senator BAKER. No, no, we will get to that in a minute. Mr. ALCH. Very well.
Testimony of Gerald Alch - Watergate Hearings: Senate Select Committee Hearings on Presidential Campaign Activities, May 24, 1973
Senator BAKER. Confine yourself if you will to the allegation made by Mr. McCord, contained on page 2 of his statement, with respect to the defense of the recall of the CIA and the doctoring of his records to reflect that. Is there anything else except Mr. Shankman's possible testimony that you can suggest to us that might shed some light on that apparent conflict and the testimony of you and Mr. McCord? Mr. ALCH. Yes, sir. I suggest that both Mr. McCord and I, if he is willing, submit to a polygraph test conducted by a competent examiner, accredited by the American Polygraph Association. I state my willingness to do so. Senator BAKER. Do you have any other suggestion? Mr. ALCH. No, not at this time.
Testimony of Gerald Alch - Watergate Hearings: Senate Select Committee Hearings on Presidential Campaign Activities, May 24, 1973
Senator BAKER. It is further suggested by Mr. McCord that on a number of occasions, intense pressure was brought to bear on him to involve the CIA. I do not have that page reference before me, but I hope that is a fair summation of the thrust and burden of Mr. McCord's testimony. You have denied the suggestion that you consider fabricating a defense of recall to the CIA. Can you shed any further light on whether there were other or give occasions on which you suggested that we "pack it off" on the CIA? Mr. ALCH. I never did. Senator BAKER. Did you ever bring intense or any pressure to bear on Mr. McCord on this or any other subject? Mr. ALCH. I did not. Senator BAKER. Do you have any suggestion on how this committee might reconcile that apparent conflict, how we might find the testimony of other witnesses, circumstantial evidence or demonstrative evidence, or other information that might tell us where the truth lies? Mr. ALCH. As to pressure that I put upon him? Senator BAKER. No, tell us if you know of any other information, save and except the testimony given to this committee by Mr. McCord and by you, that might shed some information on who is telling the truth, you or Mr. McCord? Mr. ALCH. As to what particular point? Senator BAKER. As to the point that intense pressure was brought to bear upon him repeatedly to try to make it appear to be a CIA operation. Mr. ALCH. To my knowledge, my activity to which he points was that meeting at the Monocle Restaurant. You can correct me if I am wrong, but in my reading of Mr. McCord's testimony, that is the only instance in which he says that I pressured him with regard to CIA activity. I have already given you my two suggestions as to how to find out who is telling the truth. To my knowledge, he has not cited any other examples of my allegedly pressuring him to adopt a CIA defense falsely.
Testimony of Gerald Alch - Watergate Hearings: Senate Select Committee Hearings on Presidential Campaign Activities, May 24, 1973
Senator BAKER. Moving then to another subject, it would appear to me a material conflict between your testimony and the statements of Mr. Fensterwald given publicly after our hearings on yesterday may produce for this committee a similar dilemma if, in fact, Mr. Fensterwald makes a statement or testifies. That relates your allegation that Mr. Fensterwald said, "We are out to get the President." Mr. ALCH. Yes, sir. Senator BAKER. I understand this question is premature. Therefore, I saved it till last. But in anticipation of the fact that Mr. Fensterwald may deny that, and I rather suspect that he may - Mr. ALCH. I believe he already has. Senator BAKER. I believe he has not here, but I believe he has publicly outside this hearing room - Mr. ALCH. Yes, sir. Senator BAKER. Would you now tell us what method you could suggest to bring the testimony of other witnesses to bear or other circumstantial evidence or any evidence, to try to find who is telling the truth in that respect? Mr. ALCH. Polygraph. Senator BAKER. Can you suggest anything else? Mr. ALCH. It was a head-on conversation. To my knowledge, nobody was - I know nobody was listening in on my end. To my knowledge, nobody was listening in on his end. I do not know. Senator BAKER. Did you tell the committee that you turned immediately and spoke to an associate? Mr. ALCH. Yes; Mr. John McNally. Senator BAKER. How soon did you do that? Was it immediately after the conversation? Mr. ALCH. Yes, sir. Senator BAKER. You are familiar with the term, res gestae? Mr. ALCH. Yes, sir. Senator BAKER. With reference to the hearsay rule? Mr. ALCH. Yes, sir. Senator BAKER. I do not know if it could serve your own purposes, but does it fall within the scope of that? Mr. ALCH. It could very well. Senator BAKER. Mr. Alch, there are other conflicts, but I will not go further with them at this point. We cannot try a case with one witness and certainly not with the testimony of a lawyer. I have never in my life been in a situation where two lawyers were potentially in a swearing contest, but that looks like where we are headed.